July 13, 2006

Confessions of a reluctant switcher (part 2)

I'd like to come back to my initial observations on Mac OS' handling of window management because the more I figure it out, the less it makes sense.

You will notice that comments on my initial blog entry on this topic are usually along the lines of "I use Exposé all the time, I've never had any problem" and "Just use the right side of the dock, that's what it's for".

The problem is that both these answers are wrong, and I'm beginning to understand why. The first hint I got was my realization that sometimes, pressing Alt-~ would only cycle through three FireFox windows while I'm pretty sure that I have more than six windows open. Where did the other three go?

And then, the same remark with Exposé: I know I have six windows, why do I only see three when I press F9?

The answer is probably obvious to Mac OS veterans but baffling to anyone else: Exposé and Alt-~ will only show you windows that are not minimized. If you want to pick a window that was minimized, your only choice is to click on an icon on the right side of the Dock.

This is bad for two reasons:

  • There doesn't seem to be any keyboard shortcut for selecting a minimized window (this is part of a more general problem: Mac OS is quite hostile to keyboard shortcuts, which is very irritating when you are a proficient Windows keyboard user).

  • If you are looking for a window, you first need to remember if you minimized it or not, and then you know in which location you should look for it.
This latter part is really a momentous UI error, and it's known in the UI field as a "mode". Modes have been deemed evil a long time ago and most modern UI interfaces avoid them like the plague, Windows Office applications being a pretty good example of how to achieve that goal. When your application has a "mode", you are putting a burden on the user and you are forcing her to remember what the current mode is before she can decide what a certain command is going to do. One of the first (and worst) offenders is the famous vi, on which every single letter will have a different action depending on whether you're in edit mode or not.

This also explains some of the comments I have received on my previous entry, such as "I rarely ever minimize, I just leave all the windows open all the time". I initially thought the person who wrote that was kidding, but I know now that he was serious, and the reason is obvious now: when you have a mix of minimized and open windows, finding the right one becomes a challenge, so your only bet is to always minimize or to never minimize. Coming from Windows, this is a philosophy that's extremely hard to embrace.

I understand the initial intent of trying to separate "applications" from "documents", but this metaphor is completely broken nowadays. Is a FireFox windows with many tabs open an application or a document? Well, this is actually the wrong question, you should really ask "Did I minimize that window last time I saw it or did I just move it in the background?".

Again, Windows gets it right by putting all the windows in the same stack. Whenever you need to look for one, you look in one place, and some third-party utilities let you refine your search.

Well, to be honest, Windows only gets it partially right as well, since it won't let you narrow down your search to only windows of the current application, hence my confessed love for TaskSwitch XP.


The ultimate window switcher?

So what't the solution to this window management mess on Mac OS? There actually is one, and interestingly, it was never suggested by any of my expert MacOS buddies: if you right click on the icon of the application on the Dock (the left side, not the right side), you will get a list of all the open windows, minimized or not.


Right-click for the win!

This is exactly what I need and my experience with window switching has become a lot smoother since I discovered this.

It's not perfect, though, and this leads me to my second main gripe with MacOS X, which I will address in the next entry. Until then, feel free to share how you switch windows on Mac OS in the comments, since I'm really curious to learn about the working habits of veteran users.

Posted by cedric at July 13, 2006 01:31 PM

Comments

FYI, the dock is split into 'applications' and 'documents', separated by a bar. Minimised windows go into the document space.

I think you're approaching this from a 'This is what I expect from Windows, and it doesn't work the same' point of view. For example, Alt+Tab switches between applications, rather than windows. Alt+~ switches bewteen open windows (not dialogs or minimised windows).

That's actually sensible, if you look at the metaphor from another way. When you minimise a window, you pseudo-closing it, and it shrinks down to the document space in the dock. You're minimising it because you don't want to work on that document any more, or at least, not for now. Consider Mail.app -- if you want to compose lots of messages (or reply to several) you might end up opening reply-to windows as you're going through the inbox, but not want to reply to them all at the moment. When you're minimising them, you're not doing the same thing on Windows (which is essentially, just hiding the window). You're actually putting it into a state of closure, and that's why it's in the document part of the dock. Note that you can still see which document it is; the icon has a small view of the document, and in the case of movies with QuickTime, the movie can actually keep playing in the dockl (I seem to recall there's an option to turn that on/off).

As for the keyboard shortcuts; actually, the Mac is pretty customisable. In fact, it's more customisable than Windows applications -- open up System Preferences, go to keyboard/mouse, and then keyboard shortcuts. You can individually turn off (or on) individual keyboard shortcuts. You can also bind any shortcut to any menu item that you want, or turn them off. For example, Ctrl+F3 moves you to the dock, and then you can move between items in the dock with the mouse. You can set global shortcuts, or apply shortcuts to a single application.

In any case, minimising apps is a way of psuedo-closing some documents to reduce the current documents you're working with. The reason you're not used to it is that there's no way of defining a 'working set' like that in Windows. It's also much the same kind of split exists between the Mac's concept of application-and-document, and window's view that everything is a window.

Alex.

Posted by: Alex Blewitt at July 13, 2006 02:08 PM

Personally I fall into the "never minimize" type.

I use the virtual desktop manager Virtue (listed on my list of apps).

This puts me back to my days on my ultrasparc desktop when I did the same.

Virtue + 30" monitor == don't miss minimize

Dion

Posted by: Dion Almaer at July 13, 2006 02:27 PM

Cedric,

I'm glad to read your entries about what you don't like in Mac OS X but it's still difficult for me to agree with you. Don't misunderstand me though: I think Mac OS X is crippled with defects (the biggest one being the Finder, which can drive me nuts sometimes despite some good ideas.) I just don't see the problem with Mac OS X's approach with documents and windows. That said, I guess it's really a matter of taste/habits/etc.

To answer your question, I mostly use ExposÚ. I have a 8 buttons mouse from Logitech and thanks to USB Overdrive X I have been able to map ExposÚ's F9/F10/F11 functions to some of those buttons. I also hide (Command-H), rather than minimize, applications a lot but only the ones I do not need to use. For instance I hide iTunes all the time (thanks to Sinergy and QuickSilver that let me control it with a few keystrokes.) And I never minimize my documents, which I do all the time on Windows. Instead I hide them with Command-H. I also tend to close/open documents a lot (with Command-W and Command-N which work in pretty much any application.)

In this entry you mention Firefox's tabs. They are a perfect example, I think, of a document-oriented approach in windows. We used to have MDI applications that were quite a pain to use on Windows (taskbar clutter for instance). Tabs use in apps like web browsers were born from the need of having several documents and yet be able to easily switch between them. Since Mac OS X was meant to be document oriented from the ground up, there is seldom the need for applications to provide tabs.

Last but not least, let's take a look at the matter of the keyboard shortcuts. Mac OS X actually let you control pretty much everything with the keyboard but it's not on by default. Check out the Keyboard preferences and you'll see two things. First enable the Full Keyboard Access. Then go to the keyboard shortcuts tabs and check out all the new ungrayed shortcuts. Ctrl-F2 puts the focus in the menu bar. Ctrl-F3 puts the focus in the Dock (want to select a minimized window? here you go.) Ctrl-F5 moves to the toolbar, Ctrl-F4 moves back to the active window and Ctrl-F8 goes to the status menu (where you can see the menu icons on the top right of the screen.) That plus other stuff. It's pretty much anything I need to navigate through the system :)

As I said, I don't think Mac OS X is perfect, far from it. I just think you focus on stuff that are problems because you expect a Windows-like behavior. There are better examples of thing that went wrong. What about that awful orange/green/red buttons? They look nice but how can you tell which does what just by looking at them? What about color-bind people? What about the Finder and its nasty habit to change the way folders are displayed?

Hopefully there are great stuff too that changed my way of dealing with my data. For instance I mostly use drag and drop now (did you know that you can drag a document by grabbing its icon in the window's title bar? Pretty cool when you want to send it by mail or make a copy.) I'm also fond of stuff like the stationery pads or the fact that I can move an application or a document while it's being used (and apps even track their new location in the Open Recent menu, that's pretty nifty :)

No OS is perfect and I guess we just have to choose the one that better fits our tastes and needs. In my case, Mac OS X made my everday's use of a computer a lot easier. I still like Windows XP a lot, especially for programming, but to me it's way behind Mac OS X when it comes to managing documents and windows (damn drag and drop that almost never work in Windows :))

Posted by: Romain GUY at July 13, 2006 02:36 PM

You cite vi as an example that modes are bad. But is this really a good example? Isn't this what makes vi great? The reader.google.com (newsfeed reader) developers certainly seem to think so.

Posted by: Rob Dickens at July 13, 2006 02:42 PM

Oops... should have typed Cmd+Tab and Cmd+~ earlier. That's what you get from working on Windows all day long ...

Posted by: Alex Blewitt at July 13, 2006 02:45 PM

Thanks for the comments, Romain, I learned a few things (starting with the fact that hiding and minimizing are two different things). I just turned on all the keyboard shortcuts too, which will most likely help me address some of the problems I have experienced so far.

I still disagree with your initial remark that I "want everything to work like Windows". I think that all my concerns are purely practical, and I have pointed Windows' deficiencies in these areas as well.

I just happen to be very keyboard-centric and so far, Mac OS has made my life harder than it used to be on Windows. Hopefully, this is going to change.

Posted by: Cedric at July 13, 2006 02:45 PM

I find the behaviour odd myself, having used WindowMaker for ages, and both that and OSX are derivatives, in code or behaviour, of NeXTStep.

WindowMaker gets it *right*, showing you everything, but fading anything that'd been minimised as you tab through the list. This is how OSX should work too.

Posted by: Keith Gaugahn at July 13, 2006 02:46 PM

Cedric,

To be honest I had the same initial reaction when I started using Mac OS X all day long a few months ago. I just changed my way of working and now I am shocked when I bootcamp in Windows or swtich to my Vaio box and try to activate ExposÚ :) By the way, another nice feature that I like a lot to concentrate on the task at hand is Hide Others (Command-Alt-H) that hides all apps but the active one (it works better if you map a shortcut to the Show All function that can be found in the application menu -- where you find services, quit, preferences, etc. --)

Posted by: Romain GUY at July 13, 2006 02:58 PM

Larry Tesler, Apple alumni, famously has a website called nomodes.com.

Posted by: RichB at July 13, 2006 03:27 PM

Larry Tesler, Apple alumni, famously has a website called nomodes.com.

Posted by: RichB at July 13, 2006 03:28 PM

The argument to go out and purchase a 30" screen and a 50 button mouse doesn't work if you need to use your laptop out and about.

And ctrl-F3 doesn't work on my MacBook. It's ctrl-alt-F3, which is a bit more of a tongue twister.

BTW - I now use Witch to do my task switching. It's exactly what I wanted.

Posted by: RichB at July 13, 2006 03:39 PM

Some one should have mentioned Witch - http://www.petermaurer.de/nasi.php?section=witch

It handles minimized windows, as well as several windows within the same application.

I've bound it to Alt-Tab, and it works great for me.

Posted by: Anders Engstrom at July 13, 2006 04:21 PM

RichB: The humpteenth buttons mouse was not an argument, just the way I use my computer. I was just answering CÚdric's question. Also when I don't have a USB mouse, I just hit F9/F10/F11 which is not very hard. Last but not least, the latest Mac OS X updates let you right click with the touchpad on the MacBook and MacBook Pro (in addition to drag and drop and scrolling.)

Posted by: Romain GUY at July 13, 2006 04:27 PM

Yeah, they still haven't gotten all that stuff right yet. I tend to not minimize windows and use combinations of Cmd-Tab, Cmd-~. Problem with Cmd-~ is that it doesn't exist on swedish keyboards so when I've switched to swedish keyboard layout for writing something in swedish I can't use it. :-(

I've just installed witch (http://www.petermaurer.de/witch/) but haven't started using it much yet. I hope it will solve my problems but it seems to be a bit slow (mind you TaskSwitcherXP is also ridiculously slow and quite buggy).

Posted by: Jon Tirsen at July 14, 2006 12:19 AM

Although I'm somewhat used to window management in OS X, I would agree that it's annoying that you can't get to minimized windows as simply as you should. I find myself grumbling a bit here and there when I use ExposÚ or Cmd-Tab and find that something isn't there.

I deal with it in a few ways. The first being I usually hide apps now, as using Cmd-Tab brings them up. It's also a bonus that a hidden app doesn't take up any space on the dock. This is nice when an app is used primarily in one window.

If an app has multiple windows, I use Witch (mentioned earlier) to switch to that window. Witch is a great compliment to Cmd-Tab.

Most of the time, however, I just use Quicksilver to relaunch the app I want to use. A few keystrokes and I'm back in it without having to cycle through much of anything.

After using OS X for a while, I've noticed that my habits have changed. I used to be a frenetic window switcher and jumped between different contexts and apps. Now I'm a lot more mellow (might have something to do with age). I really try to dwell on what I'm doing longer and stay within a specific context. It has taken some practice, but I'm not so scatter-brained in my computer usage anymore and I feel I am better for it. In this regard, window switching has become less of an issue for me.

Oh, and if you need a terminal window quickly, Visor is really handy.

Posted by: Geoff Wozniak at July 14, 2006 08:19 AM

Along the lines of what Romain said - think of the desktop as your "working set" of documents.

I was also first frustrated by the desktop/dock/hide paradigm in OS X, but now I'm more comfortable with it than Windows XP. It takes mental adjustment and an open mind. The modeless and consistency argument has to end somewhere, you can make the same complaints about tabbed applications. Why aren't individual tabs shown by XP's Alt+Tab?

Here's what I use:
hidden: Mail, Cal, OSXVNC, i-Apps
minimize as needed: Safari, OpenOffice, Photoshop, TextEdit

In general, if the app has one window, I hide it, otherwise I minimize what I'm not currently using.

I also had the same experience weaning myself from the keyboard. I do believe the mouse is faster and feels more intuitive, especially for desktop operations. When using Netbeans and Eclipse though, I'm back to the keyboard.

Posted by: at July 14, 2006 09:40 AM

I forgot say that while I enjoy the visual experience expose, I do miss switching via the MRU list of windows XP uses.

Posted by: at July 14, 2006 09:58 AM

Cedric,

With all due respect, I think Romain has it right: your comments indicate you expect Mac OS X to work like Windows. Alex also had a great point: minimized windows on OS X mean something different than on Windows. There are subtle and important differences between OS X and Windows for apparently similar concepts -- like looking at a semicolon ended statement in Java vs SmallTalk. It's going to feel odd for a while.

It's interesting you use a 3rd party tool for switching in Windows, but are commenting on the default behaviour of OS X. Maybe you should try to use one of the 3rd party tools in OS X to see if it could be more like what you're used to.

In OS X, I use the default cmd+tab for application switching and cmd+~ for application document switching. If I won't be using an app for a while, I just hide it with cmd+h. I almost never minimize a windows. I almost never use Expose.

I find window management in OS X far better than Windows, and you couldn't be more wrong about OS X being "hostile to keyboard shortcuts". For almost every application in OS X, cmd+w closes the document, cmd+q quits the application, cmd+n opens a new document, cmd+h hides the app, etc. Windows has the finger cramping shortcuts of alt+f4 to close a document, alt+f+(x|q|whatever...) to close an app, ctrl+n (maybe) opens a new doc (but not a new window in Windows Explorer), alt+space+n to minimize a window. How is that better? There's not enough space to get into the brain dead, document and application, MRU, minimized app sensitive, alt+tab task switching smashup in Windows.

It does take time to learn OS X. It's not like switching from Windows to Linux. I'd suggest flipping through a "Missing Manual" book. There are quite a few gems in the OS X UI. As Romain suggests, just start dragging and dropping. And I would say, just start clicking. UI components in OS X can be manipulated in many more interesting ways than in Windows.

I hope you have fun finding new ways to do things in OS X.

-Stephen

Posted by: Stephen Scaringi at July 14, 2006 01:20 PM

Cedric,

With all due respect, I think Romain has it right: your comments indicate you expect Mac OS X to work like Windows. Alex also had a great point: minimized windows on OS X mean something different than on Windows. There are subtle and important differences between OS X and Windows for apparently similar concepts -- like looking at a semicolon ended statement in Java vs SmallTalk. It's going to feel odd for a while.

It's interesting you use a 3rd party tool for switching in Windows, but are commenting on the default behaviour of OS X. Maybe you should try to use one of the 3rd party tools in OS X to see if it could be more like what you're used to.

In OS X, I use the default cmd+tab for application switching and cmd+~ for application document switching. If I won't be using an app for a while, I just hide it with cmd+h. I almost never minimize a windows. I almost never use Expose.

I find window management in OS X far better than Windows, and you couldn't be more wrong about OS X being "hostile to keyboard shortcuts". For almost every application in OS X, cmd+w closes the document, cmd+q quits the application, cmd+n opens a new document, cmd+h hides the app, etc. Windows has the finger cramping shortcuts of alt+f4 to close a document, alt+f+(x|q|whatever...) to close an app, ctrl+n (maybe) opens a new doc (but not a new window in Windows Explorer), alt+space+n to minimize a window. How is that better? There's not enough space to get into the brain dead, document and application, MRU, minimized app sensitive, alt+tab task switching smashup in Windows.

It does take time to learn OS X. It's not like switching from Windows to Linux. I'd suggest flipping through a "Missing Manual" book. There are quite a few gems in the OS X UI. As Romain suggests, just start dragging and dropping. And I would say, just start clicking. UI components in OS X can be manipulated in many more interesting ways than in Windows.

I hope you have fun finding new ways to do things in OS X.

-Stephen

Posted by: Stephen Scaringi at July 14, 2006 01:21 PM

Witch (http://www.petermaurer.de/nasi.php?section=witch) lets you cycle through all, whether minimized or not.....or just through the minimized ones...or just through the non-minmized ones...or just through the frontmost application's minimized ones...or...

Posted by: Jon at July 15, 2006 06:42 AM

Cedric,

You're right, it would be great if Mac OS X allowed you to easily switch to a minimized window. Based on your initial post, I filed a bug asking for this functionality.

I don't expect it will show up soon.

One reason is that minimized windows are, in a way, "put away". As someone above said, it's sort of a "psuedo-closing" of documents you need but aren't actively working on.

My workflow is like this:

- "active" applications and windows are displayed and accessible; I can switch among them with ExposÚ and Command-Tab (and the cool combination of the two).

- other applications are "hidden" (Command-Option-H (Hide Others) really helps me focus on the application I'm using "now").

- When I need a current application's window, I either command-(shift-) tilde (very fast, especially when flipping between two windows) or ExposÚ the windows.

- When I need a different app's window, I Command-Tab to that application (or use QuickSilver) and then ExposÚ/command-tilde its windows.

Because ExposÚ makes it easy for me to access my available windows, I don't care how many of them there are for any particular application, so if I "need" it, I leave it up (not minimized). E.g. Camino currently has eight open windows, and my 10 open applications have 20 open windows in total.

Now, maybe this is a workaround for the "limitation" you've noted, but I must ask, not being a Windows person, what is the reason for minimizing windows under Windows. What problem is solved by doing this? For me under OS X, minimizing gets a window I want to remain open, but don't need right now, out of the way. If I need a window, I just leave it open, because I don't lose anything by doing this.

Basically, I leave my windows open because I don't have a need to minimize them. When I decide to minimize them, it's because I want to get it out the way (e.g. I don't to see it in my Command-Tilde window cycling). It actually is a feature for me, not a bug.

Posted by: Jason. at July 15, 2006 02:31 PM

Cedric,

You're right, it would be great if Mac OS X allowed you to easily switch to a minimized window. Based on your initial post, I filed a bug asking for this functionality.

I don't expect it will show up soon.

One reason is that minimized windows are, in a way, "put away". As someone above said, it's sort of a "psuedo-closing" of documents you need but aren't actively working on.

My workflow is like this:

- "active" applications and windows are displayed and accessible; I can switch among them with ExposÚ and Command-Tab (and the cool combination of the two).

- other applications are "hidden" (Command-Option-H (Hide Others) really helps me focus on the application I'm using "now").

- When I need a current application's window, I either command-(shift-) tilde (very fast, especially when flipping between two windows) or ExposÚ the windows.

- When I need a different app's window, I Command-Tab to that application (or use QuickSilver) and then ExposÚ/command-tilde its windows.

Because ExposÚ makes it easy for me to access my available windows, I don't care how many of them there are for any particular application, so if I "need" it, I leave it up (not minimized). E.g. Camino currently has eight open windows, and my 10 open applications have 20 open windows in total.

Now, maybe this is a workaround for the "limitation" you've noted, but I must ask, not being a Windows person, what is the reason for minimizing windows under Windows. What problem is solved by doing this? For me under OS X, minimizing gets a window I want to remain open, but don't need right now, out of the way. If I need a window, I just leave it open, because I don't lose anything by doing this.

Basically, I leave my windows open because I don't have a need to minimize them. When I decide to minimize them, it's because I want to get it out the way (e.g. I don't to see it in my Command-Tilde window cycling). It actually is a feature for me, not a bug.

Posted by: Jason. at July 15, 2006 02:31 PM

(Sorry for the double-post, there was an error the first time, and I didn't realize it succeeded on the back end.)

Posted by: Jason at July 15, 2006 02:32 PM

Cedric:

Why do you have a ton of firefox windows open? They have these things called TABS, Dude. (Truth be told, I still end up w/a lot of windows open, even among the browsers.)

I prefer safari most of the time, because of its RSS support, which is excellent (while FF's is very tinkertoy still). Tab cycling in Safari is done w/cmd + shift + arrow, whereas in FF, it is cmd + option + arrow (in eclipse, window cycling is done w/ctrl+page up or down, but if you use WTP, that is ruined because the baboons made it so you get trapped as soon as you hit an editor that has tabs, like the XML editor).

I use the keyboard most the time, and since I not only have a 30, but a 23 next to it, I also tend toward just leaving stuff lying around. I used virtue for a while, but it annoyed me. I may go back to it. (You quickly end up having to pin like 10 apps to every window otherwise, you drive yourself mad, then every desktop starts looking like every other one...)

I found the right click in dock trick a while ago. Now that the two finger gesture is there in 10.4.7, that's an option on the powerbook as well.

Posted by: Rob at July 17, 2006 07:00 PM

I like your solution of right clicking on the icon! Now if my MacBook Pro only had a REAL right click ;-)

Posted by: Todd Huss at July 17, 2006 07:56 PM

Rob,

The point of tabs is *precisely* to have multiple windows. I have one email window that contains all my email tabs, then one blog window that contains all my blog tabs, then one digg window that contains various digg stories, etc...

If you put all your various pages in one window with multiple tabs, you are precisely canceling the benefit of tabs.

Posted by: Cedric at July 17, 2006 08:10 PM

+1 for Witch. That's a great program -- my favorite part is how it shows all the windows for an app, not just the top-level app itself like CMD-tab.

I hope your second gripe of OS X is Finder. That thing is a dog.

Posted by: David at July 18, 2006 07:31 AM

right clicking on the icon = click the icon and hold it (half second)

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Posted by: call2biz at July 20, 2006 12:44 AM

I'm not a geek, but I did recently switch to Mac OS X from years of being a Windows user (and keyboard-centric).

To me, Alt+Tab is no more intuitive than anything else on a QWERTY keyboard; it's just learned behavior. I learned it, and used it a lot.

Therefore, even though I was frustrated for a few weeks by not knowing to use Cmd+~ to switch between active windows (and am glad I found the answer here), I don't view the differences between how two operating systems handle applications and documents as a deficiency, per se, in one or the other.

Posted by: joe public at July 22, 2006 07:04 PM

I switched from Windows to Mac OS less than a year ago. In my opinion, your posts are based on nothing and shouldn't have been posted. They seem like posts based on experience, but what experience do you have after just a few days of testing? You continue expecting the same crap like in Windows, you have your old habits and views, not matter if they make sense or not. Switching is not the easiest thing to do, you have to be open-minded, interested and need to know, that you don't know anything.

I consider myself not a Mac expert, I continue to learn, and I will be doomed if I post something like this after just a week of testing ANYTHING.

As the many quickly posted comments show you, there is absolutely no foundation for practically any single point you mentioned. Especially interesting is the fact you mention Firefox in the app/document context. An application, whose support for Mac OS X sucks (even the developers say so), which is cross-platform and primarily developped for other platforms. Now, is this a good example, or NOT? Sure, Safari has tabs, but not by default.

These posts of yours destroy more than they help other switchers or even yourself. For them, they begin to fear the switch, based on your opinions as a short term user. For you, because you don't learn how to get important apps and tips via Google (this is btw fairly easy, enter what you need, add "mac" and you get it!), instead you are dependant on comments posted to your blog - solving only the issues you mention, requiring precious time of the posters because of your lazyness (couldn't think of a more appropriate word here, sorry).

I invested hundreds of hours before my switch, was comfortable with the interface of nearly every app I use today before even using a Mac for the first time. I know and use more apps than most other Mac users I know. I files over 50 bug reports at Apple since december, most of them under investigation and only two or three closed (trivial, non-bugs). But I do not consider myself a Mac expert (repeating myself). I don't expect you to do all this, as it needs a lot of time, but then, please do not post stuff like this - instead, look for solutions!

Daniel

Posted by: Daniel at July 29, 2006 05:40 AM

I switched from Windows to Mac OS less than a year ago. In my opinion, your posts are based on nothing and shouldn't have been posted. They seem like posts based on experience, but what experience do you have after just a few days of testing? You continue expecting the same crap like in Windows, you have your old habits and views, not matter if they make sense or not. Switching is not the easiest thing to do, you have to be open-minded, interested and need to know, that you don't know anything.

I consider myself not a Mac expert, I continue to learn, and I will be doomed if I post something like this after just a week of testing ANYTHING.

As the many quickly posted comments show you, there is absolutely no foundation for practically any single point you mentioned. Especially interesting is the fact you mention Firefox in the app/document context. An application, whose support for Mac OS X sucks (even the developers say so), which is cross-platform and primarily developped for other platforms. Now, is this a good example, or NOT? Sure, Safari has tabs, but not by default.

These posts of yours destroy more than they help other switchers or even yourself. For them, they begin to fear the switch, based on your opinions as a short term user. For you, because you don't learn how to get important apps and tips via Google (this is btw fairly easy, enter what you need, add "mac" and you get it!), instead you are dependant on comments posted to your blog - solving only the issues you mention, requiring precious time of the posters because of your lazyness (couldn't think of a more appropriate word here, sorry).

I invested hundreds of hours before my switch, was comfortable with the interface of nearly every app I use today before even using a Mac for the first time. I know and use more apps than most other Mac users I know. I files over 50 bug reports at Apple since december, most of them under investigation and only two or three closed (trivial, non-bugs). But I do not consider myself a Mac expert (repeating myself). I don't expect you to do all this, as it needs a lot of time, but then, please do not post stuff like this - instead, look for solutions!

Daniel

Posted by: Daniel at July 29, 2006 05:40 AM

I switched from Windows to Mac OS less than a year ago. In my opinion, your posts are based on nothing and shouldn't have been posted. They seem like posts based on experience, but what experience do you have after just a few days of testing? You continue expecting the same crap like in Windows, you have your old habits and views, not matter if they make sense or not. Switching is not the easiest thing to do, you have to be open-minded, interested and need to know, that you don't know anything.

I consider myself not a Mac expert, I continue to learn, and I will be doomed if I post something like this after just a week of testing ANYTHING.

As the many quickly posted comments show you, there is absolutely no foundation for practically any single point you mentioned. Especially interesting is the fact you mention Firefox in the app/document context. An application, whose support for Mac OS X sucks (even the developers say so), which is cross-platform and primarily developped for other platforms. Now, is this a good example, or NOT? Sure, Safari has tabs, but not by default.

These posts of yours destroy more than they help other switchers or even yourself. For them, they begin to fear the switch, based on your opinions as a short term user. For you, because you don't learn how to get important apps and tips via Google (this is btw fairly easy, enter what you need, add "mac" and you get it!), instead you are dependant on comments posted to your blog - solving only the issues you mention, requiring precious time of the posters because of your lazyness (couldn't think of a more appropriate word here, sorry).

I invested hundreds of hours before my switch, was comfortable with the interface of nearly every app I use today before even using a Mac for the first time. I know and use more apps than most other Mac users I know. I files over 50 bug reports at Apple since december, most of them under investigation and only two or three closed (trivial, non-bugs). But I do not consider myself a Mac expert (repeating myself). I don't expect you to do all this, as it needs a lot of time, but then, please do not post stuff like this - instead, look for solutions!

Daniel

Posted by: Daniel at July 29, 2006 05:41 AM

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Posted by: 吡咯烷酮 at August 10, 2006 10:17 PM
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